BBS in a Box 2/BBS in a box - Trilogy II.iso/Files/Education/H/Irish/lessons/p

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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 19:18:01 GMT
From: Michael Everson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Elem IG:  Pronunciation comment and question
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 10 Jun 92 10:18:27 PDT from <[e-mail]>
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On Wed, 10 Jun 92 10:18:27 PDT <[e-mail]> said:
>neighboring consonant is either broad of slender?  Let me give a few examples.
>The word, bean (woman), is pronounced [b'an].  How can I know without being
>told
>that it's not pronounced [b'en]?  Others:
>
>                right   ceart   [k'art];  why not [k'ert]?
toisc go mbéadh [ke'rt] *céart
>                man     fear    [f'ar];   why not [f'er]?
toisc go mbéadh [f'e:r] féar
>                grey    liath   [li:@h];  why not [l'ih] or [l'ah]?
toisc go mbéeadh [l'ih] lith agus [l'ah] leath (agus is liath [l'i@h]
>                wet     fliuch  [fl'ux];  why not [fl'ix]?
toisc go mbéadh [fl'ix] *flioch
>                away    amuigh  is it [@mu] or [@mi] or something else?
[am@]
>
>It would help beginners if we could have a guide for these situations.  Or
>shall
>we just resign ourselves to memorization?

It's not memorization, but acclimation. For nearly everything, given a
"standard" pronunciation, such as advocated in Foclóir Póca, the
Irish orthography is a faithful representation of Irish sounds (except
for palatalized/neutral/velarized consonants (traditionally Caol vs. Leathan)
about which I shall write soon).

Michael Everson
School of Architecture, UCD, Richview, Clonskeagh, Dublin 14, éire
Phone: [phone]  Fax: [phone]


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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 15:34:48 GMT
From: Marion GUNN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Elem IG:  Pronunciation comment and question
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 10 Jun 92 10:18:27 PDT from <[e-mail]>
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On Wed, 10 Jun 92 10:18:27 PDT <[e-mail]> said:
>...
>        Now I have a question regarding those rules.  In the case of words,
>especially one-syllable words, in which there is both a slender and a broad
>vowel, both short, in a syllable, is there a rule that indicates which one
>represents the spoken sound and which one is there simply to indicate that its
>neighboring consonant is either broad of slender?  Let me give a few examples.
>The word, bean (woman), is pronounced [b'an].  How can I know without being
>told
>that it's not pronounced [b'en]?  Others:
>
>                right   ceart   [k'art];  why not [k'ert]?
>                man     fear    [f'ar];   why not [f'er]?
>                grey    liath   [li:@h];  why not [l'ih] or [l'ah]?
>                wet     fliuch  [fl'ux];  why not [fl'ix]?
>                away    amuigh  is it [@mu] or [@mi] or something else?
>
>It would help beginners if we could have a guide for these situations.  Or
>shall
>we just resign ourselves to memorization?
>
>        Thanks to anyone who can help.
>
>                                                        Michael Collier
>                                                        [e-mail]
Mike, some of the examples you have chosen vary with dialect --
"amuigh" can sound as given in the _Foclóir Póca_, or it can
end as if written "amu" (Munster) or "amuich" (Ulster). Forget
dialect, if you wish, and stick to the _Foclóir Póca_. It is
the only truly comprehensive guide to acceptable pronunciation,
and it will warn you about words which look slender ("is") but
aren't! One quick rule of thumb for rock-bottom beginners: let
the decision be to treat one-syllable words as if the first of
the two vowels belonged to the first consonant, and the second
to the second. Your example "bean" then has a slender "b" and
a broad "n". Do not break between thes sounds, start slender
but think broad. Compare result with with words beginning
with broad "b" ("ban", "bán"). Very different sounds!
Hope this helps
Marion
PS. It pays to be on the alert also for spellings which
    can be misleading (though not half so misleading as
    standard English orthography).  As well as the "is"
    mentioned above, there are some words, for example,
    "Coirnis" (meaning "Cornish") which, in spite of
    that "ir" in the spelling, contains a broad "r".
mg


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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 92 08:41:54 PDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Elem IG:  Re:  Pronunciation and spelling
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        Thanks to all who responded to my question about pronunciation and spel-
ling.  The ability to ask questions like that and get answers from many exper-
ienced people is what makes Gaelic-L and the Elem IG course so fantastic.  (I
have many more.)

        Dorothy's comments were particularly appropriate to my question.  Are
there any more guides concerning the sound represented by two short vowels
together in  a syllable?  Even if they are only "most of the time" type rules,
they would help.  Marion's and Michael Everson's comments on the simplicity of
orthography (I think that means the relationship between sound and spelling) in
Irish as compared with English is quite encouraging.  But I'm afraid Michael's
linguistic lingo was mostly over my head.

        Readers of my comment may have noticed how I carefully surveyed and
mapped the trap of pronoucing the letters on the page and then proceeded to step
right in it with my question, so insidious is the trap and my conditioned reac-
tion from years of phonics, like Pavlov's dog.  Perhaps I was thinking that if
I know it's a trap it wont tear my leg off.  Doesn't work that way.

        Our Australian friend, [e-mail], partly beat
me to another comment I wanted to make, namely that there is more than one Eng-
lish language.  This applies to the meaning of words as well as pronunciation.
When I first started to look into Irish Gaelic I picked up the book TEACH YOUR-
SELF IRISH by Myles Dillon and Donncha O'Cronin.  I was having real problems
with the pronunciation explanation.  Then I realized the problem for me was that
it's written in English, i.e., English English, not American English.  Well it
just shows that there's no substitute for hearing native speakers speak their
language.

        As for the meaning of words, there can be confusion here also.  I have
often looked up words in Irish-English dictionaries and not understood the Eng-
lish word because it's a word not in use in the US or not with same meaning.
As an example of the latter case  the vocabulary list of the first lesson of
Elem IG has the word:  daor (Irish) = dear (English).  Does everyone in the US
understand that this means 'expensive', not 'lovable'?  And ceart (= right)
does not indicate a direction.
        I think Dorothy, in Canada, may be in the best position to understand
these potential problems.  The right person in the right place at the right time
for beginners.  Dorothy, I hope you will keep these thoughts in mind when you're
typing in vocabulary list.

                                        Go raibh míle maith agat,
                                        Micheal Collier
                                        [e-mail]


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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 92 17:36:09 GMT
From: Michael Everson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Elem IG:  Re:  Pronunciation and spelling
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 12 Jun 92 08:41:54 PDT from <[e-mail]>
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On Fri, 12 Jun 92 08:41:54 PDT <[e-mail]> said:
>
>        Thanks to all who responded to my question about pronunciation and
>        Dorothy's comments were particularly appropriate to my question.  Are
>there any more guides concerning the sound represented by two short vowels
>together in  a syllable?  Even if they are only "most of the time" type rules,
>they would help.  Marion's and Michael Everson's comments on the simplicity of
>orthography (I think that means the relationship between sound and spelling) in
>Irish as compared with English is quite encouraging.  But I'm afraid Michael's
>linguistic lingo was mostly over my head.

Which lingo was that? If you don't ask, I can't make it plainer.

Michael Everson
School of Architecture, UCD, Richview, Clonskeagh, Dublin 14, éire
Phone: [phone]  Fax: [phone]


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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 92 14:31:55 PDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Elem Ig:  Re: Pronunciation and spelling
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        Concerning my comment about "linguistic lingo" Michael Everson writes:
"Which lingo was that? If you don't ask, I can't make it plainer."

        I realize that in order to study the sounds of language that it is nec-
essary and natural for linguists to develop a vocabulary with which to talk
about the subject.  This happens in every field, from scientific to short order
cooking.  Words in linguistics which I don't have a grasp of include "palatal-
ized/neutral/velarized" and other such descriptions of sounds, although I think
I know what "voiced" means (the vocal cords vibrate?); but "fricative" sounds
vaguely obscene :-).  Also I'm not sure what "acclimation" means in this
context.

        However my real question w.r.t. learning a language is this:  How much
of the technical terminology (or linguistic lingo) is it 1) necessary, or 2)
really useful, for beginners to learn?  Can a language be described and dis-
cussed without such terms?  Do other beginners have problems with these terms,
or am I making too much of the concern?

        Also will any beginners have problems with grammatical terms.  I've
known a couple of people who were interested in Irish Gaelic but shied away
from learning because they didn't want to deal with the words describing
grammar.  I thought this was a misplaced fear but I couldn't convince them
otherwise.

        Comments from other beginners?

                                                Slán,
                                                Michael Collier
                                                [e-mail]

p.s.  Michael, make no mistake about it; I really appreciate all the help your
      giving and look forward to the further discussion you said you would give.


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From: Tom Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Elem Ig: Re: Pronunciation and spelling
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Michael,
              If you have access to a teacher or to listening materials
of which you have a transcript youdon't need the technical terms.  If you
are trying to learn how to pronounce a language (so that at some time in
the future youwill be able to recognise phrases when you hear them) without
a teacher or listening materials, you almost certainlydo need the technical
terms. A SG word like "dhuit" has two sounds which don't occur in English -
nothing like them occurs inEnglish - so it can't be described in terms of
the sounds occurring inEnglish; maybe it's possible to describe it without
using the technical terms, or at least only using the better known ones
like "voiced" and "unvoiced", by analogy with sounds in other languages
plus descriptions about how the tongue moves around in the mouth, but such
descriptions can be very complicated (and very misleading). It's easiest to
say that the initial consonant is a voiced velar fricative and the final one
is a pre-aspirated unvoiced palatalised dental stop.
Maybe the terminology is avoidable, but describing the sounds without it
is very hard work (that's the reasontechnical jargons develop - they make
life easier).

Tom


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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 92 21:35:22 MST
From: Dan Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Elem Ig:  Re: Pronunciation and spelling
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A chara,

Mo dá airgead fiú:     < my two cents worth >

Yes, the terminology is a difficulty, but I think that learning the
terminology is part of learning any new topic/field. Think of it as a
bonus, because once learned it's transferable to other languages and
natural language processing, if you are into that.

Slán beo,
Dónall

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